Curse

Skyy High · Jan 29, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

This came up in a recent thread, but it kinda died and was largely off topic anyway, so I felt we could start this anew. Whenever a topic concerning the Hall of Monuments or GW2 comes up, invariably, someone has to mention the "failure" incarnate that seems to be the HoM.

Now, undoubtedly, there were some definite problems with it during the pre-release weekend, and for a week or two after release. There still are some problems with it; I still don't like the fact that we can't pick the monuments to display ourselves ("rearrange" keeps everything in the same order), and I recognize that the weapons monument is far more limited than everyone expected and hoped for.

That said...why all the animosity, still, after so many updates and fixes? It's called a failure so often, but I've never seen anyone back up their "HoM sucks" post with a good reason. It's said that it didn't match our expectations...what reasonable expectations exactly did it fail to match? And do attempt to keep the flaming to a minimum; any post that sums up to, "HoM sucks cause I say so" will at best be pointed to as proof of the OP, or just ignored.

Charr Supporter · Jan 29, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

I think it's cool. Especially the fact that it will affect GW2. I just hope we can take the armors from it in GW2.

arch psyker · Jan 29, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

I personally have enjoyed the Hall of Monuments. It has made me want to get elite armors for all my chars. And with the promise of rewards following in Guild Wars 2, I've chosen to max out my ritualist's hall.

Yes there is probably stuff that can be improved (i.e. any weapons instead of just destroyer on Valor). But who knows what comes in the next update.

MarlinBackna · Jan 29, 2008, 11:12 PM // 23:12

I think that no one's expectations of the HoM will be met until GW2 comes out. So.... I don't see why people are arguing that HoM sucks or that it is good. You have no clue what effects it will have on your GW2 char.
The HoM wasn't a dealbreaker for me to buy GWEN. I think that some people thought it was and were disappointed because they cannot see the value of it until 2009-10.

Martin Alvito · Jan 29, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

It was overhyped, it provides few in-game benefits (People Know Me gets you the only one), and the implementation of a lot of the features was extremely poor initially. All of the updates have only brought the Hall to the point where it is poorly implemented.

1) As previously noted, the "Destroyer weapons" restriction on the weapons monument is beyond silly. At least open it up to req 8 or below weapons with perfect mods, plus all unconditionals.

2) The initial pet problem has been fixed, but the cap on the number you can display coupled with the inability to choose what is displayed where is problematic.

3) Ditto on titles. It's pretty much impossible to get anything close to your desired combination of titles displayed on the monument if you have a significant number.

4) In response to massive adverse fan reaction about the difficulty of putting titles in the Hall, now it's too easy. There's little sense of accomplishment about putting a title in the Hall. Rank 9-10 of HA, rank 6+ of the other PvP titles would have been about right.

5) The monuments for titles are mostly stupid. Every PvP title has a picture of the Battle Isles, except for Gamer (which actually has a good monument). There are a few good ones, such as the Kanaxai for finishing the Deep, but good titles and good monuments correlate poorly.

In fairness, it's difficult to judge the Hall until we see what its effects on GW2 are; we're judging it even though we're missing a major piece of data. But as far as the current game goes, the Hall is unimpressive.

Nevin · Jan 29, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

It fails because players do not know the exact rewards they will reap for each title. This can only come with further knowledge of GW2, not to mention it'd suck to do one of those say "gold grind" titles such as incorrigible ale hound to find out it only gives you a one use Dwarven beer consumable.

As of right now I simply have stopped playing GW, if any info is given on what each title will equate to in GW2, then I'll probably start title grinding for my items of choice. Now note, no specific detail is necessary- I'd be content with Title X = Profession Wide Hat, Title B = Special Beginner Skill. Etc etc..

RedNova88 · Jan 29, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

I like it. My only disappointment is the weapons display but that's forgivable. As for the people calling it some kind of massive failure... Well they can go ahead and complain until the day they learn that the world isn't perfect and that the sun doesn't revolve around them.

Constructive criticism is quite different from complaining.

hurric · Jan 29, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

this is easy
- technical bugs as mentioned above (as well as armor color screw ups when you add more than 1 armor and re-arrange)
- it promotes grindfest to the max and pretty much forces you to play 1 char since you're not going to griiiind to hell with more than 1 char which I think is against the original GW's purpose and a lot of people enjoy playing more than 1 char
- no one knows what the benefits are (could be just something lame as you don't have to grind to get fow armor since your daddy had 1 300 years ago same way you do in Gwen or some stupid thing like that)
- stupid pet that can be achieved in KobD lvl 2 only.
- weapon and mini pets dedication
- certain titles should be account based titles

MoriaOrc · Jan 29, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

5) The monuments for titles are mostly stupid. Every PvP title has a picture of the Battle Isles, except for Gamer (which actually has a good monument). There are a few good ones, such as the Kanaxai for finishing the Deep, but good titles and good monuments correlate poorly.

Although I think the HoM mostly lived up to my expectations (excluding weapons), this is a good point. The only title that should have had a map as the model should have been the Cartography titles. I think it's a little weird that while most title rewards have uninteresting monuments, most of the new "accomplishments" (like clearing elite areas) have much more unique monuments.

The only other minor disappointment I had was that only the few "elite" pets translate into a specific statue of the pet, but I can deal with that.

Darksun · Jan 29, 2008, 11:33 PM // 23:33

I like it ok. I'd like to know what the GW2 effects will be, so I can know which part is worth the time or not. My only issues are:

Weapons.
This one really is silly. Destroyer Weapons? Come ON. At least pick a group of weapons that look COOL.

Rearrange.
This one is pretty bad. It should be a matter of asking you to pick the items from a list again. Not the silly "not quite random" setup.

The Rainbow Phoenix is really awesome, but I don't know if the People Know Me thing is the right way to go about it... I'd love it for my ranger, but she's got Nothing since I focused my efforts on a diff character.. oh well..

WinterSnowblind · Jan 29, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

It's because of their lack of vocabulary and ability to think for themselves.

Although I will agree with the above two points. Only being able to add Destroyer weapons instead of your own Golds.. or at least greens seems like a very odd choice. Most of the Destroyer weapons don't even look very nice. And not being able to rearrange the monuments is just irritating.

Free Runner · Jan 29, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

I like the HoM. It could do with its rearrange system being reworked but other than that i dont see how it fails. I think people were just expecting too much out of it.

Bryant Again · Jan 29, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

I really don't care a whole lot about it. Character basedness isn't too hot, though. I will say that I was real bummed about the armor displays - then they updated them, so boo yah!

Now that you mention it, I haven't been in my HoM since a week after GW:EN's release...

credit · Jan 29, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

If done properly it could have been a success.

MisterB · Jan 29, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

I'm suspending judgement until the release of GW2. It's premature to label it a success or failure before then, in my opinion. ANet has stated that the bonuses will only be cosmetic and not superior to normal gear anyway. I couldn't care less about the HoM in GW1.

wetsparks · Jan 29, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

The only thing I don't like about the HoM is the destroyer weapons, as have been noted. The weapons and shields look horrible at best but to completely fill it you have to buy them, and they are way over priced for how crappy they look.

Vyral · Jan 29, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

There are (at least) 2 ways of perceiving the HoM.

#1: A place to "deposit" achievements in order to gain benefit for GW2.

By this viewpoint, the hall actually works fairly appropriately, given the update to the Monument of Honor. Even the Monument of Valor works, as such, as you still have the ability to fill it up with destroyer weapons to get whatever benefit GW2 is going to have (if you need to, you can sell those q8 Zodiac Swords, Tormented weapons, or other high cost weapons to buy the cheap destroyer weapons before GW2 comes out). The main angst with this viewpoint is that nobody knows what kind of benefit is going to be transferred, or if it is worth it.

#2: A place to showcase achievements and items in GW1.

In this viewpoint, people see the HoM as something that has value now, in that they can put all their shiny stuff on display. This is the viewpoint that my guildmates and I predominately subscribe to, and we often will bring others from the guild to our HoM to show what we have displayed. Strangely, I think this is the way ArenaNet wanted players to use the HoM, with the benefits in GW2 being a nice bonus. Yet, it is in this viewpoint where the HoM truly fails.

As discussed time and time again, the Monument of Valor just does not do what it should do, that is, to display valued weapons. "High end" is an extremely vague and, honestly, unnecessary term. Elemental Swords used to be considered "high end", now you can buy a q9 for 30k or less. Kanaxai's Edge used to be "high end", now you have trouble giving them away. Destroyer Weapons are apparently "high end" but they're crafter weapons that I've seen being sold for 50k. As other people have espoused, the Monument of Valor should accept _any_ weapon a person deems to hold value.

As mentioned many times in this thread and others, the inability to manually arrange monuments that have more entries than can be displayed at one time is a monumental (*heh*) flaw. If I am using the HoM to display things that I am either proud of, or like the look of, I am limited to just submitting those things, otherwise I likely will not be able to display the ones I really want because of the current clunky interface. This also brings viewpoint #2 in direct conflict with #1, as people want to put everything possible into the HoM for the nebulous GW2 benefits, but that makes it impossible to properly display what you'd like others to see. The biggest issue with this is that it shouldn't be hard to fix. Push the "rearrange monument" button and another box opens up listing all the entries for that monument with check boxes by each. You check the ones you want displayed and, voila.

Other people have groused over the generic pet monument. I can understand this as I have a Jahai Rat that became quite infamous within my guild during DoA runs. Putting him in my HoM would have sentimental value. Again, the HoM fails to allow you to put on display what _you_ find important or of value.

In conclusion, if the HoM is meant solely as a vehicle to obtaining benefits in GW2, it likely is performing adequately (given the updates to the Monument of Honor).

However, if the HoM was meant as a place to be able to _showcase_ achievements in _GW1_, then it is a failure, because it does not adequately allow one to do so.

HawkofStorms · Jan 30, 2008, 12:04 AM // 00:04

I'll add my post from the other thread and respond to your criticism of it and expand on it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkofstorms

Alright, I'll answer some of your questions Skyy.

First of all, there were other things wrong with the HoM. At release, it was fairly bugged, with stupid mistakes like customizing weapons without giving a 20% damage boast (great testing there).

Ascended armors only is fine. Not allowing mixed sets is kinda silly. I HAVE to buy all 5 pieces of my 15k armor from the same set. Mixed sets often look better and more unique, as you often stand out in a crowd. 5 different pieces of 15k armor can't be put in.

Minipet I don't have a problem with... now that they got rid of that stupid customization to minis that restricted them to one character (again, this wasn't implimented properly at release).

The Compainion monument. You can only display a limited number of heroes (five?) at a time, not all of them.

The honor monument. Only certain titles can be displayed. Some that are really easy to get, like Max Sunspear, can be put in there. Others, like the hero title track, require you to get way more relative effort. Rank... 7? hero is way harder to get then max SS. The scale of what titles should be and shouldn't be put into the HoM is all off.

Really, the HoM was just very unpolished when GW:EN was sold. It felt too rushed.

First off, your theory that it would require them to design "multiple models" for the armor monument, is just wrong. Armor is ALREADY designed peicewise. It would be no different displaying mixed sets then it is to already allow for mixed sets in the first place. It is not a problem with the models. It is a problem with the coding of how those models are implimented, which was done in a lazy, cutting corners fashion.

The limits to the number of titles and heros is arbitary.

Also, not all of the bugs of the HoM are fixed. There are many problems still in game involving the armor monument. Armor will still often display a headgear that you do not own. Also, the armor monument is automatically dyed the color of the chest peice of the armor you are wearing when you enter the HoM. Not only can you not have mixed armor sets, you can't have mixed DYED armor sets. There is NO technical reason for this. The monuments themselves can already display the armor in any avialable color. It just proves that A.net never bothered to code the monument to function by piece, but rather by whole sets at a time. Which is stupid since such a restriction doesn't exist on actual armor sets.

Winterclaw · Jan 30, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

My answer to the title:

Because that is about how much <3 anet can spare to muster on a cheap expansion before making a new game. Maybe after GW2 comes out and people yell at them for 2 years about how much the HoM sucks and what a let down it was in that game as well, they'll get around to fixing it. Of course by then they'll be working on GW3 so the HoM won't be fully fixed as they won't have the time.

Skyy High · Jan 30, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

The pieces we wear exist as individual pieces, but that's not a monument. A monument has the name of the set, and your character's body. In order to make the thing work piecemeal, the monument would have to function like a player model that could be dressed up, and neither you nor I know the technicalities of doing that. Certainly it can be said that just making a single model for every ascended armor set is the simpler method...and an argument about the technicalities ignores the point that designing rewards for mixed armors in GW2 would be much more difficult.

The limits to heroes and titles is 5, so you can display decently sized monuments. If it were any greater, the monuments would be smaller. I don't see this being a terribly big loss; it'd be unnoticeable completely if we could just rearrange our own monuments.

The technical reason for the way dying is handled is clearly that, in order to not have to store the dye information for each monument all the time, the game just takes whatever color you're wearing at the moment and puts it on your armors. Simple, while allowing you to also change the dye job if you wanted to. I don't see the importance of a monument displaying the headgear of the set that you display.

I still see nothing that constitutes "fail" on the whole. Individual complaints, yes, but most are either minor or subjects of opinion (the level at which pvp titles should be able to be displayed, for example). The most consistent reply seems to be that people just want to know what they're working towards, which is very reasonable...but we'll undoubtedly get that eventually, when the game that the rewards are being made for is at a level where they're actually designing content for it. I mean, seriously, what's worse: not knowing what the reward is going to be, or having the reward change on you after you've completed the achievement?

To Winterclaw:

Quote:

any post that sums up to, "HoM sucks cause I say so" will at best be pointed to as proof of the OP, or just ignored

Consider yourself the former.